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#7	Why does an all loving, all knowing, and all sovereign God will into creation people He foreknows will suffer eternal condemnation? Why does Romans 9:20 feel like a cop-out answer?
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DTrain said 9 months ago: Why is backing up theology with scripture a "cop-out"?
Shu said 9 months ago: Romans 9:20 read in context seems to be talking about the God's supreme power and will. Do you think we ask questions like this because we are more concernd about comforting our minds than God's righteousness and glory?
D-Man said 9 months ago: Well we do have a god-given conscience that normally gives a pretty accurate sense of whats right and wrong - so its not unreasonable to be confused when it conflicts with scripture.
Sean from Canada said 9 months ago: True, but there's a strong possibility that we don't fully understand what Paul was saying here. I think that's why Pastor Mark has stated that as a church you guys "will not die on the hill of limited atonement." I've got a couple theories kicking around that work for me on this issue, but I'm just a young punk who fights too much and reads too many commentaries. I hope this makes it into the top 9.
Tired said 9 months ago: Because "backing up theology with Scripture" can be subjective to interpretation. Not everything is pat.
Zack said 9 months ago: Removed 165 votes that were artificial. Remember, just 10/day folks.
Dtrain said 9 months ago: Where else should we dervive theology if not from scripture? We obviously do not look at the surface of a verse, but we find the context and the original intent of the author and derive principles there after. There is a way to objectively look at scripture and determine a true interpretation.
Russ said 9 months ago: I think Rom 9.20 is an apt response to the question posed in v 19. Paul clearly teches the fact that God has chosen some and not chosen others to be "children of the Promise". And when our sinful nature asks how He can damn us for His sovreign choice, we are put back in our place and God is put back in his place, which is the throne. It brings to mind the last parts of the Book of Job when God asks where Job was when the universe was created. Nevertheless, I do also believe that Paul gives and answer to the of v. 19 question in v. 23: it is to make His glory known, which is the ultimate goal of creation in general. For how can we know pleasure without pain, or joy without sorrow? And how can we know mercy without also realizing the severity of God's wrath.
Shu from Australia said 9 months ago: That's a great comment! Thanks Russ
Robin said 9 months ago: Even if God did not choose us to either go to heaven or hell, we know from scripture that many will go to hell regardless of whether God chose us or not. Broad is the highway that leads to destruction, many will enter through it. Narrow is the highway that leads to everlasting life, few will find the way. And if we cannot graple with this fact, then we are denying that God exists. Therefore, if we trust that God is the almighty God, we must accept that he chooses some to be saved and some to go to hell for if we don't then we deny that God is God. Also, like others have said, because God is God and we are a sinful people, there must be some who will receive the punishment that we all deserve. They will not have an excuse on judgement day so they are not being treated unfairly; they have lived their lives in a rebellion to God and are receiving the punishment for it.
Joey said 9 months ago: Romans 9:20 on it's own seems like a "cop-out" answer. If you read it within the context of the rest of the chapter though, it is explained in a way that will help you understand it better, especially verses 14-19. www.thefireofnewdesire.com
seth said 9 months ago: -- Because "backing up theology with Scripture" can be subjective to interpretation. Not everything is pat. -- which is why the basic premise of sound hermeneutics is to obtain doctrine from scripture and not "leverage" scripture to say what you want it to say. it's a reasonable set of methods to safeguard against "subjective interpretation."
Jon said 9 months ago: We're all sinners and nobody is capable of turning to Jesus unless the Father draws him. The Father doesn't draw everyone though, so those he chooses not to never really have a chance...
Shu from Australia said 9 months ago: In response to Joey: I actually thought that the versus from 9:20 onwards better put the 'cop-out' verse in context, as in explaining the reason why God chooses to save some and not others. However I humbly admit that to my foolish human mind it is not the most comforting answer. What do you think?
some guy said 9 months ago: The true viewpoint of this answer goes back to Platonic reasoning (that is, the reasoning skills developed by Plato and his students). He asserted that there is a higher level of moral right and wrong that is separate from the moral assertions of the deities. Therefore, one could question the heavenly beings for being right or wrong in their judgments. This reasoning is false. God decides what is right and just. God decides what is false and evil. This comes into play when Paul answers those who would question God for his sovereign will. It is interesting to note what Paul does NOT say. He does not refute the questioning of God by stating "God's sovereign will is higher than your notion of Platonic morality." He simply says, "God is in control. Who are you to question?" However, as stated above, God IS above every question of His goodness or his justice. God could, in complete harmony to His nature, condemn us all to eternal torment. It is by his desire for a remnant that any of us persevere.
said 9 months ago: very astute some guy. God is in control and we are not to question his justice. The point is that we are all born to sin and we make a choice to follow Him or not. There was no need for God to condemn before the fall of man. We chose to disobey God at that moment and the temptation of sin has been prevalent ever since. The Word of God is available to all - salvation is available to all who choose to confess their sins and ask for Christ's mercy. You know the rules...break 'em and go to hell.
Joey said 9 months ago: In response to Shu. Yes, the verses after Romans 9:20 do help out a lot with understanding this concept of God being just in sending people to Hell whom are predestined by His own hand. I enjoy reading the build up before the verse, because it shows where Paul is coming from and why he is talking about this subject. The verses that follow afterward are awesome too. The main point is, we need to keep all scripture in context, and not use one verse apart from the rest. www.thefireofnewdesire.com
Shu from Australia said 9 months ago: Yes Joey I totally agree with you
Eli said 9 months ago: Robin you said, "we must accept that he chooses some to be saved and some to go to hell for if we don't then we deny that God is God." Question: Don't we choose (Deut 30:19)? Is this an extreme conclusion to say that if a person doesn't accept something God does that they deny God? Don't we do this throughout our lives as we wrestle through issues? Is it ok to be real with God without your salvation being on the line? Also, it says in 1 Timothy 2:4 that God desires all men (including women) to be saved. I understand that God is all knowing and sovereign but at the same time from what I read in scripture I see that He is passionate for people and there is hope for everyone to be saved. Question to all: Can you list scripture that God wills anyone to eternal condemnation???
Shu from Australia said 9 months ago: Dear Eli You make a very good point. Sounds like a Calvinism Vs Arminism question. Have a listen through Marshill media library on Driscoll's talk about 'limited unlimited atonement' (??!!) go to sermons -> topical serie -> Christ on the cross to download that talk. I'm still struggling with what Mark says is about the 'passive and active will of God'. Tell me what you think after listening :)
Eli said 9 months ago: I'll check it out, thanks Shu.
Eli said 9 months ago: Shu, I listened to the sermon and thought it was well laid out and very helpful. I have been saved for about 10 years but some of the theological terms are new to me. After listening to this I would have to agree with Mark and the elders of Mars Hill. I agree with both sides, Arminism and Calvanism. The thing is this conclusion may not be completely logical (?) but I think that's ok. Jesus being raised from the dead doesn't really make sense to the intellect either but I believe nevertheless. I know that God chose me and that He has good works, prepared in advance, for me to do (Eph 2:10). I also know that I need to say, "Yes," and obey in order to walk with Jesus. I think there are extreme viewpoints on both sides of Arminism and Calvanism and that it is important to not get caught up in the "Isms." At this time I feel like my relationship with God is an ongoing and changing process. Rather than putting God or His Word into a formula and labeling myself as Calvanist, Arminist, or whatever, I just try and stay as close as I can to Jesus by obeying the first and most important command to Love Jesus and others. I know this could be overly simplistic but that's the way I got to keep it. With Respect and thanks, In Christ.
Tim said 8 months ago: I think it would be beneficial to reword or clarify this question. The way it's worded, it's a question for everyone except open theists and universalists. Are you a non-Calvinist, and do you believe that (1) some people will be condemned to hell and (2) God knows the future exhaustively? Then you believe that God willed into creation people He foreknows will suffer eternal condemnation. You also have to face the question, why does God create them if He knows they're going to suffer for eternity? That might be what the question was meant to ask. But I'm guessing that the question is aimed at Calvinistic election. I think it's meant to be, why does an all loving, all knowing, and all sovereign God choose not to save some sinners?
The questioner said 8 months ago: Dear Tim, yes you are right in saying that the reader of this question has to make some assumptions. Yes I believe that some people are going to hell (sadly and distressingly), and yes I believe that God knows the future exhaustively (praise be to Him). I agree with you that whilst 'why does God not save sinners' is a valid question, my question is actually more 'why does He create them in the first place'. Hope I have made myself clear. ^_^ Would you like to throw something back in reply? Thanking you for seeking clarity in the question
JRV said 8 months ago: Predestination has always been kind of a mind-blower for me. I have to say that I think the Bible is clear in its (predestination's) legitimacy... it is pervasive. Does anyone know the position of MH? I know Gospel class breezes over it with regard to salvation, but does not officially endorse it.
Andrew said 8 months ago: Soley and only for His glory would He act or do anything.
ryan said 8 months ago: This question is answered in Mark's sermons. So not really needed.
Shu from Australia said 8 months ago: Cool which sermon mate? I'd love to hear/watch it
Robert said 8 months ago: Backing up thoeology with Scriptrue can Be a Bios view Piont. What Needs to be Prosses is whats Known as the " ToTal Wittenss" (Found in the Helvic Confession)(Wich is not taught at Mars Hills Seattle or any other Conffesion of Faith) Of Scriptrue meaning finding other parts of the Bible to see the Whole Pictrue the Theology ends up becoming a Commentary then. This hopfully Will take out Most Bios , Meaning , Who ever is writing or teaching the interpation will leave out there personal Bios out of the teaching , Chirstian Doctrine Chapter 1 (who is a theologain) Written By Shirley Guthrie JR.
john sullivan said 8 months ago: illustration of romans 9:19-21 “imagine if you will. 5 guys break into your house. And they take your child. They torture him for 6 hours. And after torturing him, they kill him slowly – while they eat and laugh at him and make fun of him and scorn him . Now they just did that to your baby. They’re caught. The 5 guys go to trial. The jury hears the judgement. While the judgement is being enacted, these 5 guys look at you and scoff at you, and mock you, and laugh at the pictures of your dead child. The jury goes out. They spend 3 minutes in conference. They come back in. the gavel comes down. ‘you are condemned to die by lethal injection.’ You stand up. The father and mother of the dead. And you say, ‘judge, of those 5 – I would like this one not to go to judgment.’ The judge says, ‘I can’t turn him loose on the street.’ ‘I’ll adopt him. And he will take the place of my dead son. And as a matter of fact, all of the wealth of my dead child, I will pour out on him. He will eat at my table. And by the unveiling of my love, I will make that degenerate into a devoted, adopted child. And that way – they will enjoy me and glorify my Grace. Someone stands up in the light of your suggestion. And what if the defending attorney was the person who stood up and said, “objection.” Objection? Of what? “it is wrong for that man to offer mercy to one of my clients. That is wrong. How calloused could he be? All of them must be saved.” The prosecuting attorney now stands up and you know what he says? “I protest the protestation your honor.” And he looks at the defense attorney, and he says, “WHO ARE YOU?? You defender of degenerates. To argue with the free mercy of my client. Every one of those men should die by lethal injection. He saved one. And incidentally, what would the court think of your offering mercy and adoption. Would they receive that notion? They would now haul you off as insane. But I’ll assure you noone would stand up and protest what you did without having the words, ‘I’ll beg your pardon, you hard, ignorant, stupid, illiterate individual. Who are you to answer to this offended individual?"
said 8 months ago: John's illustration really puts this issue into terms we can understand. This question pretends to question Gods judgement when it really is questioning his incredible mercy.
john sullivan said 8 months ago: I should cite my quote: tommy nelson - denton bible. www.dentonbible.org
Devils advocate said 8 months ago: Romans 1:20 - For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. (Your honor. My excuse is you did not elect me.) Matthew 22:14 - "For many are invited, but few are chosen." (You did not choose me.) John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. (You doomed me to fulfill your scripture. I have an excuse.)
Cameron said 8 months ago: In brief, the answer Paul gives is that the Potter has freedom over the clay to do whatever He wills to do with it. Paul says "who are you O man to talk back to God?" It doesn't say "How dare you O man ask God questions?" The fact that God has the right to do what He sees best and fit with His creation is His perogotive. That IS an answer. It is an answer by way of giving rightful perspective. I think this is a good question, and shouldn't be explained away with simple exegesis of Rom 9. There are terrifying and wonderful things to conclude about God, us, and grace within this question. The Christian song 'Light of the world' says "And I'll never know how much it cost to see my sin upon that cross." But I would uncomfortably, yet whole heartidly, advocate how all redeemed saints will one day know what it cost to have our sin slain on the cross. This is because we will see the beautiful ever-revealing glories of Christ against the back drop of God's eternal wrath and judgment. This is simply so God could give His saints a more deep and rich knowledge of His love and grace for us who are saved! So why is God sovereign over sending some to Hell forever? Simply...love. Love for us who are redeemed. It's mind boggling to think this is the God we serve, but we must strive to see Him for who He is. God is not interested in us being confortable with Him, but still would have us know that He is good to those whom He loves. But MarsHill has a hard enough time taking a stance on Limited Atonement. I doubt they would cover this one in great dept as John Piper would. But I would hope I'm wrong.
Mark said 8 months ago: This kind of discussion is fruitless. Gospel is such that it's very simple: you're a sinner, you're messed up, you need cross, repent. I personally find this debate needlessly exhaustive. I think that both sides contain kernel of truths but to align yourself and spend needless hours making sure that you dot your theological and doctrinal i's and cross your t's is a complete waste of God's time when we're called to partake in his redemptive work in history. The gospel is made to be understood by the simplest of person. It's not just for people with, or who talk and pretend to be like P.h. D graduates of theology from Oxford or Cambridge or Edinburgh. Pastor Mark's time would be better spent on other important things like dealing with our sin of pride, the powerless gospel that we live by such that the way we live is no different from the world, the lack of godly character, etc. As an aside, the idea that we sinners have no choice to choose God is completely idiotic and theologically unsophisticated. Think about it, people, if we have no choice as sinners to choose God's offer of forgiveness and mercy AND the whole point is for us to be in a relationship with Him, these are completely contradictory ideas. Did I just make your head spin? If not, please read on. The absence of choice, the absence of free will, in the context of a relationship, would be robotic. We would just be robots to God. In marriage, if I had forced my wife to marry me by putting a gun to her head, can you really say that we have a marital relationship? Common sense and the no-duh mechanism within each of us would say "Of course not!!!" Instead of sitting in your ivory towers, judging fellow believers by straining the theological gnat, I say get off your butts and stop wasting God's gift of time, read the Bible, get knocked out by the supremacy of the gospel and the glory of God's mercy, and start living as salt in this dark and decrepit world.
Topher said 8 months ago: Wow! I completely and whole heartedly agree with Mark. Score one for the no-nonesense making department. Thank you for that rad bit of truth, Mark.
john sullivan said 8 months ago: it's interesting that mark says both sides have part of the truth and we shouldn't spend so much time debating the subject, and then he proceeds to write one of the largest comments on here in defense of the free will position (and i don't necessarily disagree with him either, mind you).
Dude 123 said 8 months ago: It seems to me that the question asked is a legitimate one. It is hard to answer, but it is not a fruitless debate as Mark seems to point out. Paul makes a very strong statement about who God is and how He acts towards His creation and how we, His creation, are supposed to react toward God. Granted Mark's comments are good, but can only be truly lived out when we fully know the character of God. Paul in his answer seems to be pointing out a certain perspective of who God is and who we are in accordance to being His creation. It is only when we truly grasp who we are and who God is can we truly be the way Mark is preaching and advocating for in the above comment.
Alex said 8 months ago: God does not design people to go to Hell. He gives people free will to choose because He loves us. Whether we choose to be with Him or not is our choice. The problem is man wants to take away the responsibility of his own sin and blame God. The thing is free love does not force itself on somebody, but offers a door. He provided us without excuse through His death on the cross and life on Earth, that not only is He a sovereign God and powerful, but He humbles himself so we can be saved. Many people like the shooters in Littleton, CO have a chance to repent before the final judgement. The shooters at Little ton, CO went to a Christian concert three days before the shooting. The band was Racket and Drapes. Their pastor said, "somebody has killed somebody or thinking of killing somebody and God wants to give you a way out." Pharaoh hardened his heart against Israel and the word hardened means to confirm. When God hardened Pharaoh's heart hHe only confirmed what was there. Pharaoh's blood is on his own hands. He had chance, and chance to repent. The issue is whether we do like Peter did.
Cameron said 8 months ago: It sounds like this would be a topic worth discussing by looking at all the differing views so far in this thread. I will advocate that it is something worth looking into, like all possible knowledge of God (theology), but may not be suitable for MH. These types of secondary issues are generally unevenly spread throughout the eldership at MH, just like Limited Atonement for example. Plus, with all respect to Driscoll for one who stands for truth, communicates well, has great insights to life, and isn't your typical watered down church leader, he can tend to reduce difficult theological topics (and beautiful ones at that) to overt simplicity or just make fun of the people who hold those beliefs. Just my 2 cents... Moving on... Mark you think that people must have the capacity to sin to have a true relationship with God? Don't you realize that after our glorification we will be perfectly unable to sin forever by the Spirits grace and power? Yet we will have free will to love God, not because we can sin, but because we are created in God's image. Further, God does not force anyone to love Him, rather, He restores our wills so that we can love Him. This is only be Him replacing our hearts of stones with hearts of flesh, enabling us to know Him and love Him. Apart from this, all are left condemning God, Rom 4:5, Rom 3, Isa 64:6. If you truley believe what you believe Mark, then you must believe Christ is not a total Savior. You believe He only made Salvation possible for everyone. Then He didn't really save did He, but only made a way for you let Him save you. Jesus is a rope thrower in your view of the gospel, and you will only be saved as long as you don't let go of the rope that cost His life, blood, and death.
Cameron said 8 months ago: Further Mark, with your beliefs of the gospel and free will, the gospel is dependent upon us to be successful! If could very well have been that it wasn't successful because maybe no one would have believed. And how do you know you've believed as you even ought? Maybe you haven't. Maybe tomorrow you'll have a bad day and God will cut you off and you may not realize it. Or maybe your faith is an indication that you were in on the efficacious death and resurrection of Christ, apart from your choosing, and therefore the Holy Spirit has no reservations to restore your mind and heart back to God, causing you to love Him, thereby giving you your faith by which you can always take comfort in knowing you are forever justified!
Cameron said 8 months ago: Which gospel is the most solid and gives the most glory to God?
Meredith said 8 months ago: I just listened to the first sermon of "Redeeming Ruth" and it talks about this issue.
Russ said 8 months ago: I think something has been lacking thus far in this discussion. That is I think we have taken some terms and definitions for granted ie. "free will" and predestination. (I have always found that most disagreements stem from a confusion of ideas that use a similar vocabulary.)From an Arminian/Wesleyan perspective, the idea of free will (in this matter) denotes the idea of free choice and an open relational call to all of mankind from God. On the other side, namely the Reformed/Calvinist perspective, the idea of free will can be seen almost as a non-existant idea. Man's will is bent always to sin and a hatred for God. But as Mark said above, there is a kernel of truth to both sides. The key is to understand the idea, not from the defensive perspective of our systematic theology, but from a humble submission to Scripture. Paul teaches us in Romans 6 that we can either be a slave to sin (eg. unsaved) or a slave to righteousness (eg. saved). Thus we see plainly that the idea of our own autonomy is not Scriptural, but our own fabrication trying to by like God. We are either mastered by our sinful nature or by the righteous nature of Jesus, but clearly, we are not our own master. However, being the good slaves that we are, we serve our master freely. When we were sinners we sinned freely and happily. We are not locked into our sinful nature against our will. Also, when we are born again, we freely and happily serve Jesus (although not always consistently) because he has given us that ability by his Holy Spirit. But how do we change masters? Well, Satan bought us with rebellion (we rebelled against God in the Garden of Eden) and he remained the master of us until we were bought by a new master (or old for those of you who are counting). The new price that was paid was the obedience and blood of Jesus' sacrifice. Thus, although our will is bound by our nature, we freely serve that nature. But the question still stands, "Why doesn't God simply give everyone a new nature?" According to the Arminian/Wesleyan position is because God isn't some spiritual rapist who forces himself upon us whereas the Calvinist replies that it is not rape to jump in the water and pull a drowning man to shore. The answer is Predestination. Whether Aminian or Calvinist, if you read the Bible, the concept of predestination is unavoidable (Gen 18:19; 24:14,44; Ex 31:2,35:30; Lev 16:10; Deut 7:6, 14:2, 18:5, 21:5; 1Sam 10:20,21; Rom 8:29,30; Eph1.5,11; 1Pet 2:4...to give a few) The question is the nature of this "predestination: is it that God knew who would choose him and predestined them accordingly, or did God predestine people according to His good pleasure? This is a question that needs to be discovered personally. In my opinion, the Bible gives no support to the former and the latter gives the glory all to God. This is an important discussion, however, because it forces us to think about who is the author of our salvation; is it us and our decision, or God and His? Well, what I know is this: John 1:13 "[We are] children born not of natural descent, NOR OF HUMAN DECISION, or a husband's will, but born of God." Jesus is our savior. If we propose that we are saved by "making a decision for Christ", then we are saved by our reason and wisdom to choose rightly and thus have a right to boast over the non-Christian since s/he was no wise enough to make the same decision. But if we suppose that it was given to us to believe by the Holy Spirit and regenerated by his power, then we are saved by grace through faith which is a gift from God not our work of good decision making. It is God who initiates by making us a new creation, and we respond freely. But that is my humble opinion.
Jack said 8 months ago: Cameron, you don't make any sense...
Cameron said 8 months ago: Most people in Seattle don't make sense to me, but I still give reasons why that is. What are the reasons I don't make sense Jack, if you don't mind sharing?
Cameron said 8 months ago: Hey Russ, are you the Russ who knows Brant and Scott? If so, what's up, you remember me right? I think it sounds as though I were reactionary in my response to Mark, however, because blogs are so impersonal that can't always be avoided. I am really not reactionary in my beliefs as much as I am passionate about them, as anyone should be about their beliefs. Russ I think your post is humble and fantastic. I even put it on my blog (restorethegospel.wordpress.com)
Russ said 8 months ago: Hey, Cameron! Yeah, I am friends with Brant and Scott. I do remember you and I hope that you are doing well. I am glad that my comment was helpful.
Angela said 8 months ago: First I will have to set some basics. I believe that EVERYTHING about God is good. God knows all. God is soverign over all......... I agree that if God knows all and is soverign over all that he knowingly and willingly creates people who are bound for wrath. I also believe that in order to fully appreciate God in his fullness, we must know him in full (or in all of his parts). Being that he is infinite then this will obviously be an infinte process. If God wished to take a people who were bound for wrath and display his love to them and all of his qualities, which again are wholely good, he would need to show them not only his love, mercy, and generocity but also his wrath. As much as we may recoil from this notion, the wrath of God is an infinitely good thing. Without knowing the wrath of God, we would not know the full weight of his glory. Also, if God's wrath is not fully displayed in its infinite manner then we will never know the full extent of either his mercy in sparing a few undeserving souls or his generocity in Jesus' own death for us.
Chaos Wrangler said 8 months ago: Seems to me all the various predestination vs. free-will, Calvinism vs. Armenian, evangelism vs. fatalism questions should be consolidated to one. If they were merged they/this would be the number one question by over 1,200 votes.
Gem said 8 months ago: first of all you have to make sure you know what the context of the scripture is before you can make a "judgement" about it. This portion of Scripture, Paul was talking about his fellow Jews and thier rejection of Jesus as YWYH (God, creator) and the messiah that they had been waiting for. The Jews attitude was rather like that of the elder brother when the prodical son came home. "Hey havent we been rightous? What the heck are you doing lettting in the gentles." They are being admonished for being arrogant. Its not a rebuke to a broken hearted person struggling and grappling with sorrow, and pain in a broken world. Rember one principal of Scripture is the "law is for the lawless, (1Tim 1:8-11)" but God will not "break a broken reed" (Isaiah 42:3), or rebuke someone who is discouraged, broken, or struggling. God is a good father that knows when we need a spank because we are being definant little jerks and when we are struggling and hurt and need a hug. I mean look at Job. God wanted to smack Job's friends upside the head for thier comfortless words when he was hurting. And Zephainiah tells about God's sweetness and joy. Like a dad tossing his little one in the air out of joy and putting him on his shoulders for a horsey ride. Why does God allow those to be born who will ultimately be condemned. A. because He allows room for free will. No one will have any excuses about how God didnt give people a chance. And B. (Not that my answer is complete, its only a short snippet) but the more I see exactly what my sin looks like, I see yikes, how do any of us make it. I mean really. We reaaaally dont see how bad off we are. Seriously. Like the picture of Dorian Grey. He looked like a charming, handsome man. But his painting showed just how evil and sick and twisted he really was and had become. We do some pretty nasty stuff to each other. Ask any professional counselor, they will tell ya. Open up the newspaper. You dont have to go far. And the people that dont repent, they are growth fodder for us. Has any one noticed that the bulk of video games come with these npcs that you contend with, and they level you up? You could never join with them like you could another player and they could never be redeemed, but they help you level up. Just this week I had a chance to get some "experiance" in perserverance. XD But it comes down to, as you get a real glimpse of the real Jesus, you will find Him just and fair, and completely gracious. Along with sovern King and Holy. LIke I said, it helps to continually get real about how I really am. Get a real pictre of my sin.
Cameron said 8 months ago: Gem, as I'm sure you know, God would be just and fair in sending everyone to Hell, thus, if God elected some for redemption and not others, He still stands perfectly just and fair. I would argue that advocating God's fairness ought not prove man's autonomous free will. You said "Why does God allow those to be born who will ultimately be condemned. A. because He allows room for free will. No one will have any excuses about how God didnt give people a chance." This argument does contain some holes that are worth pondering. 1. God could have created only those whom He knew would have chose Him, thus no one would have had to go to Hell. Let me ask you then, why didn't God do it this way? 2. If God really gave all men free will and allowed them to chose their own eternal fate, then God must at some point learn two things. God must first learn who will chose Him so that He can then learn who will forever be in heaven or hell. I've heard atheists even use this argumentation against God's omniscience. How would you repsond to this objection to Mr. Atheist? Is this really the God of Scripture?
Cornelius Van Til said 8 months ago: That's why you shouldn't interpret Scripture based on your "feelings."
Charles said 8 months ago: Trying to understand the conflict between free will and predestination with the mind is a dead end street. Once God reveals the truth to the heart, the confusion is over. Sadly, the truth "unspeakable" (incapable of being explained in human language) and full of Glory. If we seek Him with all our hearts, we will find Him. The one who receives an answer to this question will be changed forever.
said 8 months ago: Cameron and Russ, well put fellas. Hey, is this Scott Shipp of Brant and Scott?
Darin said 8 months ago: I don't know for sure which way I fall on double predestination, but I do know that if God does choose some for destruction as well as some for glorifing Him, He would still be just in that. After all, if God in judgement will crush sinners (as in a winepress) so that their blood flows for more than 180 miles and reaches the height of the bridle of a horse, then His judement is personal (Rev. 14:19,20). Jesus, in the same chapter of Revelation (14:10), is clearly going to be Lord even of hell.
Jeremy said 8 months ago: A good sermon to answer these questions from a MH perspective is under "Books of the Bible," John 6. Driscoll covers MH's position of predestination and election very clearly. And unless he has changed his course over the last 6 years, that is probably still MH's position on the debate. Coming from a Nazarene background and having turning the Reformed theological corner, I cannot see why any of you would, or could think that we have the capacity within us to choose God when all we've done from birth is run from His goodness and mercy until, for some of us, it finally caught up to us! A dead man makes no choices!
Dude 123 said 8 months ago: What Jeremy has said and what Russ said a couple of days ago are really at the truth and heart of the matter for the first question. We need to understand that God is all knowing, and all loving, but He is also all justice, all holy, and all jealous as well. We need to have a full concept of God before answering questions like this. He is also all powerful, all knowing, and everywhere all at once in His entirety. But what about the second question? Is Romans 9:20 a cop out answer? Paul is bringing us back to the heart of the issue. Who is God? and who are we in relation to God. Well Paul's point seems to be that we are only the creation and we do not have control nor are we even in a spot to cry foul about how God wants us to live or how we are saved. God is in control and that's pretty awesome and worthy of praise.
Russ said 8 months ago: No, we mean Scott Hedgecock and Brant Bosserman.
concerned said 7 months ago: Scripture clearly teaches that God is worthy of worship and praise. If we could not choose to worship and praise God, we would not be encouraged to do so. Worship and praise are acts of human response to God .... The point of disagreement between a Calvinist and a non-Calvinist Christian believer ----------- (yes, there are non-Calvinist Christians out there :)-------------- is that non-Calvinist Christians believe that we have the choice to thank God for what He has done for us. What we don't have a choice about is "getting to see God as God really is" without God revealing God's self to us. In other words ........ We can see what God has created ..... Romans 1 .... but our interpretations of what God is really like might get messed up if we only draw our conclusions from what we see in nature. So God gave us Jesus .... as a living, personal demonstration of what God is like "with flesh on" --------------- God is Spirit and so is unseen by human eyes ....... Seeing Jesus helps us understand more about God (reveals God to us). The Bible gives us various accounts of Jesus' life, as well as early interpretations of what Jesus life meant for humanity ---------------------When Paul is talking about the "elect" he is talking about how God planned from "before time" to send Jesus to save BOTH Jews and Gentiles .... This was God's plan ------- To offer salvation to ALL and then let them choose whether they wanted to accept this gracious gift or not. God desires RELATIONSHIP with us that is genuine ...... and not coerced or forced upon us. God gives Good GIFTS because God is GOOD, and wants us to genuinely offer our praise and worship in return.
Jeremy said 7 months ago: It would truly be a sad sad world if our "salvation" depended on our choosing Him, and He not graciously choosing His "elect." We are born spiritually dead. How many dead guys have you ever met that have chosen life? If a dead guy was raised from the dead, by Jesus, do you think that--after ressurecting--he would say, "You've forced me to have life! How dare you?" I'd tend to think that the "response" would be, "Your grace is amazing! I will worship and adore you!" (John 11,12). A dead man has a hard time choosing life (JESUS). Either way, however, I am greatful that you love Jesus and that you are my brother or sister in Him. God, in His providence, will use multiple methods to bring us the revelation of salvation. And for that, I am eternally greatful. God Bless You All!
Reductio ad Absurdum said 7 months ago: Here is what the Bible says: God loves me enough to let me choose him. He knows that I am truely good deep down inside and I would be convinced to love him and follow him if I were given enough time. He knows that the sin which has corrupted and perverted humanity's heart really didn't affect me to the degree that I wouldn't know a good thing when I see one. You Reformed theologians talk about Total Depravity like sin has completely penetrated our entire being. As if we are all that wicked. Do you honestly think that sin is so corrupting that it makes us blind to the light of Christ, or deaf to the truth of God's Word? The Bible doesn't even talk about sin that way...maybe you Calvinists should read your Bible a little closer. And as far as Unconditional Election, my gospel tells me that if God wanted, he could save everyone in the whole world. He is that powerful. I'll put it simply for all of you who forgot your own experience when you were saved: God saves people on the condition that they believe in him. Duh! Therefore, since I had the ability to muster within my quasai sinful nature the ability to believe in Jesus I was saved! God didn't choose me, but I chose Him. Haven't you guys read John 3:16? I don't think that the Bible even talks about election or predestination. I haven't read romans 9, but I am pretty sure that it doesn't talk about God choosing some people for noble purposes and some for common use as if thay were objects. That is so unloving as far as I understand love, and it is not the God I know. In regards to Limited Atonement-as if Jesus actually accomplished anything on the Cross! Everyone knows that when Jesus said that "It is finished" he meant that he was finished making salvation available to everyone in the world (again I would point out John 3:16). It is not as if when Jesus died he presented the Church a special gift of love like a groom would give himself to his bride on their wedding night. Rather, since he was so loving and generous he not only presented that gift to his own bride, but also others as well. I think I remember reading IN THE BIBLE! about loving you neighbor's wife as your own. And for those of you who would even suppose that Irresistable Grace is true, I would like to confront you with common sense: God would not force himself upon me like a paramedic giving CPR to to a dying man. That's spiritual rape! Rather, Jesus, like a gentleman, asks if he can beathe life into me while I am unconscious and turning purple. And since I am able to choose rightly, out of my vast and uncorrupted natural wisdom, I will elect that Jesus be my savior. It is so sad that some people have got it so backwards. They really miss the point of the Gospel. In John 3 (just before 3:16!) we learn that we need to be born again. It is obvious that Jesus is teaching Nicodemus how to give himself new life and make himself be born again through his own free will! If irresistable grace were true, wouldn't Jesus have forced Nicodemus to believe? It is not as if the Spirit is like the wind, blowing where it pleases. People aren't born agian that way. They come to a decision after weighing their options and realizing that Jesus is the best way to go (or their emotions are brought to such a sensational point that they'll agree to anything and then the Church can get them plugged into a really good discipleship program. I think Paul talks about this in 1 Corinthians, for those of you who don't read your Bible.) Lastly, as far as Perseverance of the Saints, everyone knows that this is just an excuse to sin. The Bible talks very clearly about how at any moment you could cross the line of sin and lose your salvation. God is the one who saves us after we perform the necessary task of chosing him, but after that, we are left to our own devices and if we can make it on our own righteousness, then we make it. Believe me, I wish it worked the way those five point Calvinists want it to. I want it so bad that every day I ask God to send me a Comforter or a Helper to drive me to repentance and security in God. He could even give it a cool name like the Holy Spirit. Luckily, since I was righteous enough and wise enough to chose God in the beginning of my salvation, I will be righteous and wise enough to see it through to the end. It is too bad for those who were not faithful and just enough to complete the good work they began in themselves. Having said all of this, I do not know how anyone can believe that salvation is in the hands of a sovereign and merciful God. Honestly, what is so amazing about the hope that though we are unworthy and sinful, God came and gave his Son as a sacrifice to pay for the sins of his people? And what sort of God would choose a person who is deserving of hell, who hates everything holy and give them the ability to believe in and love Him? And what sort of Gospel is it that presents salvation as something born not of ourselves or our abiblity to choose Jesus, but born of God and his mercy and justice? To me this is an entierly different Gospel and an entierly different God than my god.
Mariah said 7 months ago: Maybe you should actually READ Romans 9 before you run your mouth off at "those of us who don't read our Bible." First of all, the Bible absolutely talks about election and predestination: try Romans 8:28-30 and Ephesians 1:5,11 for a start. Second of all, I really think you have this all backwards. What is so amazing IS the hope that though we are unworthy and sinful, God came and gave his Son as a sacrifice to pay for the sins of his people. THIS IS THE GOSPEL. "And what sort of God would choose a person who is deserving of hell, who hates everything holy and give them the ability to believe in and love Him?" My God would. He did this for every one of us. For you and for me. We all deserve hell, that is a fact. No one is righteous on their own. Read Romans 9, and stop putting God in a box of what you think He is supposed to be. He is what He is. He is loving, faithful, good, merciful, jealous, wrathful, and just.
Reductio ad Absurdum aka Russ said 7 months ago: Mariah, before you blow a gasket, I would like to point out a few things. First, my latest post is so saturated with sarcasm that I honestly didn't think anyone would actually take it seriously. I apologize if it made you so mad enough to put a chair through a window. The latin phrase "Redictio ad Absurdum" means "reduction to the absurd". In my post I reduce the full Arminian/Wesleyan to its eventual logical conclusions however foolish they might be. Although, the person who adhears to the Arminian would never agree that this is what they believe, it is their eventual conclusion, and, as you well know, it is sickening. The truth of the matter is that such a gospel which entrones the autonomous free will, is a gospel that detrones God from his throne of glory and mercy. By saying that we are saved by choosing Christ rather than Christ choosing us, however embarassing it is to admit we have not saved ourselves, we deny the grace and mercy of God's sacrifice. Secondly, if you read my previous comments, you will understand my true position on the matter. I am embarassed by those who say that the person who is resurrected from the dead by a living God is not sincere in their love for him because he forced them back to life. As if we were to interview Lazarus after Jesus raised him from the dead, he would tell us that he wasn't truely grateful or did not sincerely love Jesus for giving him the gift of life. Such a thought is absurd, thus is the reason I wrote my previous comment. Jesus is my savior, not me. He gave me new life, and when I was born again I realized how dead I was and rejoice, even to this day. I once was lost, but now I am found; I once was blind, but now I see. That is an amazing grace. I hope that I have cleard things up for you. I hope I didn't drive you to go buy a high powered rifle or anything. If so I think Wallmart has a 90 day return policy ;)
Russ said 7 months ago: forgive my spelling and gramatical errors, it's midnight where I am and I just got done with a 14 hr work day. translation. Arminian/Wesleyan...=Arminian/Wesleyan view or position; detrone and entrone=dethrone and enthrone
Anon. said 7 months ago: I stated this in another question similiar to this one before it was taken off when the list was wittled down. The bible seems to support both Election and Free Will such as in Titus chapter two verse eleven when Paul States " For the Grace of God has appeared bringing Salvation to all men." and other verses talk about Predestination in the same letter in Chapter one verse two, Paul States " In hope of Eternal Life, Which God who never lies, promised before the age began.If you take the bible literally how MH does,(which I agree with for the most part), then the to verses seem to contradict eachother, and supporting both views, how is one suppost to find truth? to be completely honest, I would like for the arminian veiw to be at least true for part of the Body of Christ but then that would partly take away the Glory from God, but then if Calvinism and Election was the true doctrine, that would seem to be like a spiritual rapist kind of a thing. Where is the standpoint?
Anon. said 7 months ago: And for the record when I said "for the most part", i'm talking about books such as Revelation that were written after being revealed in a dream. And as I already found out: Stop the arguing! It's completely useless and won't accomplish anything, those of us that can be argumentive, we should be instead trying to help other people come to better understanding and in search of the truth and fixing our own errors the best we can. Maybe God gives us different interpretations of scripture for the purpose of working through our differences so we can be better united in the end. No one interpretation I think will ever be "right on" until we are in Heaven.
Jeremy said 7 months ago: That was brilliant Russ! Tons of scriptures were flooding my mind while reading your "reducteo"! Good work!
Anna said 7 months ago: Did I miss something? Doesn't Jesus say, "For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened." Why are we questioning the hearts and minds of people who are asleep to (or totally rejecting) the Word and Truth of scripture? Are we really willing to pretend that evil does not exist, and that Satan has no power? This is a wicked world, and is chock full of lies. This question is a mystery to me, mostly because people are really unsure of the answer. (And not only unsure of the answer, but asking the question in the first place.) It seems like the real question here is, "Is God good?" And don't deceive yourselves here!
Russ said 7 months ago: Anna. I don't think that the question is whether we seek or knock or even if the call to salvation is an open call. The real question is why do some respond and other do not. I think that the answer is that God has regenerated (or gave them new birth) some and not others. The reality is that God has called the whole world to repentance and salvation, but we are so sinful that unless God changes our nature, we will never respond to his open call. So God elects some people to salvation out of his good pleasure. This is a hard truth to adhear to because it forces us to admit how sinful we truely are and that the Scriptural and logical consequence is that God has chosen himself a people to declare his name and bring him glory.
Mariah said 7 months ago: Wow, sorry, I can't believe I missed the sarcasm. Sometimes it just doesn't translate, you know? And my rant came out sounding a little more angry than I actually was. I'm embarrassed. Sorry. Good thing I decided against that rifle...
the elect said 7 months ago: God doesn't elect me! That's messed up. I elect God. By choosing him as my Savior.
Russ said 7 months ago: Elect, it is a good thing that you are your own savior. I bet that when you die and go to heaven God will be really impressed that you elected him. I mean, yeah he created everything in existance and condescended himself to come into his own creation and sacrifice himself for the church, but at least you had the righteous state of mind, even in you sinful depraved nature, to love him and recreate yourself as a Christian. Way to go! You totally deserve all the glory for your salvation and you even know it. I bet that builds up your selfesteem every time you pray for grace.
the elect said 7 months ago: Russ, when I get to heaven, God is going to say, "man you are awesome. Thanks for electing me, I am so glad you were smarter, better, and more holy than your friends and elected me. Where they screwed up, you didn't." And the crown that God's gonna give me, man, that's because I elected that crown too. It's all about me man.
Jon from Spokane said 7 months ago: I really hope this sermon makes it. In the last two years, from studying my bible and looking at theology, I've gone from being a classic Arminian to a 5-point Calvinist. This theological transformation came from my high view of Scripture, and my high view of Jesus on the Cross. At first I didn't like doctrines like unconditional election, and limited atonement because they sounded so harsh. But through pouring over the Bible, God has completely changed my heart. I believe that true biblical Calvinism (not hyper-Calvinism), has the highest view of God's grace and mercy. I think Mark Driscoll (and I can't remember which sermon it was) was right on saying that Calvinists (according to theology)should live like Arminians, in regards to evangelism. Coming from someone who used to be a full on Arminian, I would challenge both Calvinists and Arminians to study the Bible, especially the hard verses like Romans 9:20, and 1 John 2:2. I would also read what Charles Haddon Spurgeon said about it in his sermon titled: "Particular Redemption" No. 181 Delivered Sabbath Morning February 28th 1858.
the elect said 7 months ago: I meant the post to be sarcastic but I guess it might not have really gone through. What I was trying to poke at is that there really are only 2 conclusions about salvation. 1) God elects us. The only reason we make the choice to choose God is because God chose us first. OR 2) We elect God. We choose God autonomously. #2 contradicts Scripture and is kind of outrageous. In his message on Prayer and the Work of Missions, John Piper made a really good point about this. He said that if we believe in our free autonomous will to choose God, we're essentially saying there is part of the human will that God cannot touch. But we are totally inconsistent in really living that belief out. For example, when you pray for God to stir up a longing for God in the hearts of your non-Christian friends, do you pray for 1)an effectual longing that gets them saved or 2)an ineffectual longing that will not save them? Of course you pray for the first one. But what you’re essentially praying for is for God to make them think and believe something that they otherwise wouldn’t. Essentially, you’re asking God to mess with their personal sovereignty. The sovereignty of God in awakening dead hearts is actually the hope for evangelism.
Anon. said 7 months ago: I'm going to correct what I said above, I don't believe God GIVES us a different interpretation or understanding of the bible since God cannot lie and God is completely truthful, but allows it so that we can grow from it more when we come to knowlege of the truth,just wanted to make sure everyone interpreted it the right way.
Karin said 7 months ago: God created the world and everything in it. To think that He isn't the one who saves us is silly. He is the one who called us and we (the elect) are only answering that call. Romans 8:28-34 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
Karin said 7 months ago: Ephesians 1:4-14: Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Karin said 7 months ago: "He chose us in him before the foundation of the world". How much more clear can you get. These two passages seem crystal clear to me. Dig in the Bible and study the Word. The more one studies, the more clear God's messages to us are. Just reading a passage or verse here and there won't give you the fullness of understanding God intends us to have. Although at first glance the concept of election might seem harsh, in reality it shows God's grace and mercy toward us. NONE of us deserve what God has given us.
Jon from Spokane said 7 months ago: I completely agree Karin. At first when I was studying the concept of election it sounded really harsh, but the more I studied the more it made complete sense with what Jesus did on the cross.
Karin said 7 months ago: Like I said. . .at first glance it does seem harsh. It doesn't help that a large number of churches don't preach this - they preach of free will. The Bible is clear, though, that God CHOSE US. We are his elect. We aren't the ones who did the choosing. The more you dig in the Word, the more God's will is revealed to us and the more clear it is. The people who come to a saving knowledge of Christ are the ones who are God's elect - the ones chosen before the foundation of the world. We have been given a wonderful gift by God - He has poured out His grace upon us. There isn't anything we have done to merit God's favor - there isn't anything we can do. It is totally a God thing.
songofrebirth said 7 months ago: Hi all, First off I wanted to thank people like Russ and Karin (and all of the rest of you who did this) for taking the time to respond to so many people's comments and also for always quoting Scripture. There are many good theologians out there to quote, but really, in the end, they are just quoting the Bible. :) Secondly, I know a lot has been discussed about how GOD chooses us not the other way around. I 100% agree, for this is what God's Word tells us so clearly. To add on a little further though and mention election a bit more...take a look at Romans 9. It quotes what God said all of the way back in the Old Testament: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated...and is this injustice on God's part? By NO means!" God can do whatever He wants because He is God! And if we keep reading: "for He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassionSo then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.". The Lord clearly states that He has done this so that HIS name might be proclaimed in all the earth. Life is not about us and trying to live the best life possible; it's about God. Our lives are not our own in the first place! Okay, so maybe this all makes sense, but then how can WE be judged in the end by the Lord if He is the one Who preordained our lives; the one Who elected us as His child? It goes on to say in chapter 9: "You will say to me then, 'Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?' But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, 'Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.' 'And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' there they will be called 'sons of the living God.' I guess the simple answer that God gives is this: "I AM who I AM"...He is the Potter, we are the clay. He formed us from dust and breathed life into us. The entire ending couple of chapters of Job talk about this, as well as many other places throughout the entirety of Scripture. And my friends, this does not make us robots as some think. By no means! Once we are His child, we are free IN CHRIST. This means we can obey or disobey, but He will use it all for His glory and it will not change any of His sovereign plan for His creation. We can't understand this, but if we did, then we wouldn't be a creature, we'd be the creator...and we AREN'T. HE IS. :) Blessings!
songofrebirth said 7 months ago: Wow. The internet freaked out and I lost something else I was going to add on to the last comment...umm I'll try to remember. ;) ----------- Basically, if the last comment seemed kinda confusing, here is the simplified version I guess. lol. We are creatures, we have finite minds, we cannot EVER completely comprehend or understand The Creator. If we did, we wouldn't be the creature anymore, we'd be a creator and than God wouldn't be GOD! Somehow He is sovereign over ALL and He tells us all in His Word. We need to read what is actually written there and take it in FAITH. And only God is able to give us this faith; only He is able to reveal to us His Truth...We need to read what He says in His Word and then ask Him for the faith to believe it. Also, I know there are many definitions of free-will, but here is one I really liked: "Freewill: made or done freely or of one's own accord" (how can something be done on our own accord if God is our Master and our Creator and the only means of our breath and life? Lastly, I just wanted to throw out this question: Where is freewill talked about in the Bible? I know our freedom IN Christ is there, but please, please...anyone who has verses to back up freewill in The Bible, I'd really, truly like to know about them.
Karin said 7 months ago: Songofrebirth: I can have my own opinions about what I believe about the Bible, but if it isn't backed up by Scripture, of what use is it? I think that anyone seeking information about the Bible and God's Will shouldn't be satisfied to just hear someone tell of their opinion. They need to hear directly from the Word of God. Also hearing someone who preaches (and teaches) in an expository manner (not just a verse here and there to back up their "point" but reading entire passages to see the verses in context) is critical! If the Bible is taken apart piece-meal it can mean almost anything one wants to hear. Someone should also not be satisfied with just hearing someone teach and/or preach the Word - they should do their own independent Bible study. Start in John then go to Romans then maybe to Acts then the rest of the Gospels. Follow that by the letters to the New Testament churches. People seem satisfied with so little. If they hear what they want to hear they feel good. This prosperity thing going on is so destructive - and people are buying in! Read the Larry King interview with Joel Osteen (I posted part of the dialogue on the salvation by faith v. salvation by works question). He has tens of thousands of people at his church every week and listening to him on TV who buy in. Even Larry King seemed to be surprised with what he said.
Karin said 7 months ago: Songofrebirth: You wanted to know a verse that is used for freewill? Here is one that is used: Matthew 7:7,8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. They don't recognize that it is God who caused them to do the asking, seeking and knocking. Like Jeremy said in his post some time a couple of weeks ago "a dead man makes no choices". We were dead in trespasses and sin - God breathed life into us and made us a new creation. How can a dead man make a choice? As far as the Arminian/Calvinist controversy that has been brought up in earlier posts. . .Armius and Calvin were both men. As men they are both fallable. I would submit that not even a 5 point Calvinist would not agree 100% with everything that Calvin said. I personally believe that by studying the Bible you can only come to realize that the 5 points systemized by Calvin are to be totally Biblical. I also believe that even though God chose use before the foundation of the world doesn't relieve us of the duty to go out and tell others. The Great Commission is in the Bible for a reason. HOWEVER. . .I think that setting up these labels (Calvinist/Arminian)is somewhat destructive for general discussion. The focus should be on sola scriptura (scripture alone). Whether or not you assign a label (Calvinist or Arminian) to what you believe is up to you - read the Scriptures (and then read them again - and again). Don't be satisfied with less than your own deep study and prayer. Let God's Word speak to you. The truth will set you free.
songofrebirth said 7 months ago: Karin, I totally agree with you on everything you said. :)
Jon from Spokane said 7 months ago: I agree as well. Although, on an interesting note, John Calvin did not come up with the 5 points of Calvinism. Those came a generation later at the Synod of Dort, in response the the Remonstrance, or 5 points that the Arminians came up with.
Karin said 7 months ago: Jon from Spokane: I do need to do more research on Calvin. I have studied Luther, Spurgeon, Pink, and Wycliffe in some depth but only a cursory study on Calvin. My understanding was that the actual 5 points were set forth after his death based on his systemization and as a reflection of his thinking (of course, I could be off base with this). Now I know where my studies need to go! Thanks for the correction.
Jon from Spokane said 7 months ago: Karin, I believe you're correct about how the 5 points were based on his systemization and as a reflection of his thinking. I just think its funny how Christians will try to rip apart the 5 points of Calvinism, when they were just a response to the now lesser known 5 points of Arminianism.
Karin said 7 months ago: Just to clarify a point I made in a few posts ago. . .the reason I think that using the Calvinist/Arminian "label" is destructive is because there is so much misunderstanding about what it is. If you were to ask 10 people what a Calvinist is you'd probably get 10 different answers. If you asked 10 pastors what a Calvinist is you'd quite possibly also get 10 different answers. Like I said. . .the focus should be on sola scriptura (scripture alone) - anything less shouldn't satisfy you.
The Thing said 7 months ago: Since God presdestines some for Heaven and other's for Hell, the one's he predestines for Hell, does he still love them?
Russ said 7 months ago: I think He does since 1 John tells us that God is love (eg. the way God interacts with us is in a loving way). God has revealed himself to the Christian and the non-Christian through his creation out of love (Romans 1). He sent His only Son because He loves the world (John 3). He has accomplished so much for us as His creation. But the problem is not with Him, it is with us and our sinful nature. He reached out in love and we responded by eating from the tree of knowledge; we responded by worshiping idols; we responded by breaking His commandments; we responded by murdering Jesus, His one and only Son. He has shown us His love, and although it was not a salvific love, it was still love. For example, in John 3.16 we are told that God loves the world, but in Malachi 1.2-3 (quoted in Rom 9.13) we are told He hated Esau. Does this mean that God changed his mind about people? Does it mean that Scripture contradicts itself? No. Nor should we understand this to mean that God was hateful toward Esau because He didn't like him. God didn't have hateful feeling toward Esau like a KKK member hates an African American; or like a liberal hates a conservative (vise versa); or like an "evangelical Christian" hates a gay rights activist. If God truely moraly opposed Esau, there wouldn't be much to stop Him from striking Esau dead and sending him to hell. Rather, God hated Esau in the sense that the covenantal Promise was not passed to Esau. God chose not to pass the Promise on to Esau, but passed it to Jacob because of His own good pleasure. He still loved Esau in a common way (as Calvin would have put it). He loved him enough to let him live, have children, grow old and have a full life. Also, Gen 25.23 tells us that Esau despised his birthright, just as the non-Christian hates Jesus. Ultimately, one could argue, that God simply gives Esau what he wants just as he gives the non-regenerate what they want. Esau rejected his birthright and it was given to Jacob; the non-regenerate rejects Jesus and His resurrection and in return they do not have to spend eternity with a God they hate. But since God will make for Himself a people, he elects some of us according to His own good pleasure. That is when His love becomes effectual for our salvation. Simply put, He loved us before we were saved and we are no different from the un-elect (we hate God just as much as they do). But, just as the love I have for my wife is different from the love I have for my best friend, so Christ's love for His bride (the Church) is different for His love for the whole world.
Jon from Spokane said 7 months ago: I agree Russ. I think that's the best way to explain Limited Atonement. God is love, and when Jesus died on the Cross, He did carry the sin of the whole world, but even though His death was sufficient for the salvation of all, it was efficient only for the elect. God doesn't hate the non-elect, but in order to pull off being BOTH a loving God and a just God, He could save many, but not all. I think Romans 9 makes sense in showing God's great, wonderful mercy and love by contrasting it with His wrath, poured out on the objects of His wrath. I don't believe that at random God picked who would go to heaven and who would go to hell, I believe that in truth every human being who has ever lived should go to hell, but Jesus saved many.
Jon from Spokane said 7 months ago: wow, that was kind of incoherent. sorry guys.
4given said 7 months ago: "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." Rom 9:15-16
??? said 7 months ago: Apologizing to your kids for having them? Why would you tell your kids that they might go to hell and there's nothing they can do about it? Why not just teach them the Gospel and let God work in their hearts. I believe in election, but we have no idea who may be elect, so we love everyone and encourage everyone to respond to God's calling on their life. Even if some of your kids aren't walking with the Lord now, you don't know how God could use you or anything in their lives to draw them to him. "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news" Bring the good news to your children, trust God with the rest. Rejoice. God is a good God. We don't completely understand His ways. I pray that you'll be able to let go and let God do His good work.
Jon from Spokane said 7 months ago: Amen.

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